Reb Silverstein I refer you to Yitzak Rabkin's A Threat From Within: Jewish Opposition to Zionism. This scholar's informed opinion differs markedly from yours and I see no reason to reject his carefully argued and documented work (incl. on the Haredim). I took "Opposition" to denote Anti-Zionism not Non-Zionism. Either way your equation of Anti-Zionism with Anti-Semitism is unwarranted unless you are making an identity statement and thereby distorting the common meaning of words. I said I'll stop and I will but to Boaz I would simply say (even though you never addressed my concerns) that I have never denied that some reporting of Israeli events is skewed and unfair to Israel. I readily concede that (although it goes both ways). I will try and look up what you told me about. Many thanks.

So the blood libel has a high rating in the world. Congratulations! Most of the "war-crimes" that Israel was accused on in Lebanon were debunked – what planet you lived on when that information was published? Planet "Guardian"?.. The initial topic of this article and the discussion is the Muhammad Al-Durah case. It was staged for the camera, as were scores of events of that kind which were reported by "human-right" organizations as authentical. Yet, the real child-murderer Samir Kuntar is praised by Arab states, including Palestinian Authority officials, as a big hero. What your so-called "human-righters" have to say about that? One of our radical left writers Ronit Matalon saw herself Arab children in Gaza sent forward against the IDF by armed men. She told it to a friend from "Betselem" and he told her not to publish it because it "damages the goal". That was in an interview she herself gave to "Yedioth Ahronoth" newspaper. Nevertheless, she took part in a legal suite against Dan Halutz. Today there was another terrorist attack in Jerusalem. An Arab from East Jerusalem drove a bulldozer into a street traffic, killing three and injuring more than forty before he was killed by policemen. The initial headline in BBC was "Israel bulldozer driver shot dead". So give me a break… I'll stop for now too.

"Mel," what an unfortunate choice of username considering your views. You didn't go on a Tequila bender before signing on, did you?

I know for a fact that there are Anti-Zionists who are not Anti-Semitic. I met both of them in 1979.

Stefan Denis, you are ignorant of the facts. As a Chareidi (Ultra-Orthodox) Jew living in Israel myself I can tell you that 99% of Chareidim are not Anti-Zionist. They are Non-Zionist which is a big difference. We don't like using the word Zionism as this is a secular political movement which denies the holiness of the Jewish people. We don't serve in the army as there is much immodesty and lack of Torah. However, look at almost all Chareidi magazines or newspapers and you will see ultra pro-Israel articles. Obviously a secular Jewish government is better than a gentile one in Israel. Obviously we support the IDF who protect us. The Anti-Zionist Netorei Karta is a tiny minority of some 50 families that have no power but make a lot of noise. We condemn them as supporting anti-Semites and enemies of Israel. Your reference to "commonsensical interpretation of some passages in the Talmud" is complete nonsense. These misguided ones quote Mesecha Kesuvos 111a which itself quotes a midrash which is never used for halacha LeMaaseh (practical Jewish decisions). All the leaders of our generation have rejected this opinion. In short AntiZionists are anti-Semites, even Jewish ones.

This is not good enough Boaz. It's not just single Human Rights groups. It is a massive consensus - not just Betselem but across the board. There is no blood-libel. I am merely relying on these sources, and I don't think the entire consensus can be dismissed. Do they all hate Israel??? If you look at their records the vast majority don't even single Israel out. As to Anti-Zionism - don't use the term if it's not accurate. All I have asked is for a refutation of what I have read. Thus far I have had none. And of course the human rights groups across the board DO claim to have proofs (had you looked at what I referred you to you would have seen this). Of course I am prepared to look at the evidence and of course I don't want to engage in any blood libel. But calling something a blood libel does not make it so. As to child-killing - a lot of children were killed in the 2006 war in Lebanon and again human rights organisations found this was due to indiscriminate bombing (and what about all those cluster bombs I mentioned). Moreover Human Rights Watch certainly singled out the Hizbullah for more criticism than the IDF, unlike many "Israel-haters". And certainly statements by Defence minister Amir Peretz and (allegedly) by IDF Chief of Staff Halutz re. targeting neighborhoods and residential buildings don't inspire confidence. Regardless of these, the cluster bomblets alone are bad enough. Read through the reports, look at how they coincide etc. I'll try and look at your evidence and I thank you for pointing me to it. Let's not assume anyone hates any country merely for trying to find out what's going on. I'll stop for now.

Boaz, come on, this is ridiculous. B’Tselem is an ISRAELI information center and for sure it is not infiltrated by Palestinians. Click on the numbers for a list of individual names and details about the circumstances of their death. It says that most of them did NOT participate in hostilities when killed: killed with her mother and three siblings while eating breakfast in the yard of their house, killed when on the street with friends, shot in the stomach while at home, shot in the head by soldiers who had gone onto the roofs of houses, killed when he and his friends were playing soccer near their house, killed while sleeping in his bed when the ceiling collapsed on him, killed when riding in a car with his family, killed when gathering wood, killed while flying a kite at the beach, killed while on his way to buy candy at a store next to her school. … 'Abd al-Karim Khaled Salem Zaharan, 15 year-old resident of Deir Abu Mash'al, Ramallah and al-Bira district, killed while standing with a group of children on a hill. A soldier in an army jeep fired at the children from a distance of about 300 meters, hitting him … is that what you call ‘accidentally’? To think that Palestinians are deliberately putting their children in the front line knowing that they will get killed to make the other side look bad – is that what makes you feel more comfortable and less hysterical? That’s sick! The distortion of facts is the modus operandi of people like you, who are defending the mass killings of children. And you shouldn’t be worried; I have a large diversity of information sources. Only paranoid minds are picking up the bits they want to link to their views. As for Muhammad Al-Dura, he’s a symbol, if dead or alive, he gives a face to all the nameless victims. I couldn’t care less about the media who bend and twist things to suit their own point of view. Every war is fought on two grounds, the battlefield and the media (via propaganda).

Stefan Denis, you know perfectly well what kind of anti-zionism I meant, your referral to the ultra-ortodox Jews and the opponents of Hertzel is not intellectual. Israel is slandered constatntly by different organizations, some of them known as "israeli". But actually "Betselem" is well-monied from abroad anti-Israel group. Their reports are false, it was proved many times by Jonatan Dahuah-Halevy (and couple of times by me), whose name you propabaly never heard and whose works still known only to some Hebrew-readers. IDF is not a child-killer, period. What you say is Middle-age blood libel. Look, I cannot explain you all the facts in talkbacks. Lie is usually short, but it's debunk might be complicated. But the point is you don't have proofs for your accusations, only stories similar to Al-Durra so-called "death" case. I studied the matter and I have facts, so your words that I should "keep my peace" are real chutzpa. If your have someone to translate you, there are some materials on my site: www.boazmh.net. The rest will come.

Mr Weiss, It is your post that avoids the facts, and it is mine that points readers towards them. Thanks for the CIF smear though. Telling,and it sure beats the effort of deploying an argument. Still, smearing critics has a long tradition amongst certain people (have a look at Ginsberg's The Fatal Embrace for tips). btw I'm more a reader of The American Conservative than the Guardian in case you're interested.

Stefan Denis, Mel, Simon Evans et al, I think you should stick to the Guardian's CIF site. You'll get far less upset by what you read there as most of the comment is from Israel haters and demonisers. By reading that you can avoid the truth as it is presented here and continue with your own world views, happy and untroubled by facts !